Watchers Engage: Community Live Q&A

Hello. Ladies and gentlemen, wherever you are in the world, and welcome to another episode of Watchers Engage. Um, unfortunately, Una Vandenberg is an apology for today. Um, she's actually off sick, so you'll have to deal with with myself, but that's that works out. Um, so um and and my my wonderful co-host, panelist for the day is Cecilia here. How you doing, Cecilia? >> Hi. I'm good. Good. How are you, Robin? Last minute. >> Yeah, I know, right? I'm I'm I'm not as

cool as you, but I I'll get there one day. I'm still trying. >> So, ladies and gentlemen, boy, do we have a a wonderful um agenda for you today. But maybe maybe I will just kick off by just formally introducing myself. So, as mentioned, my name is Robin Lee. I'm the general manager for a an anti-inancial crime software platform called Hawk. Okay. They're a German company that has has put together what I would like to describe as the the the iOS of financial crime. It's a platform

which has different applications that all interact with each other and talk to each other. My background is such that as as I'm hear I'm sure everybody could hear I hear from the UK uh but um I actually started my career in Silicon Valley. So I was a developer for six years. Then went to Wall Street where for four years I worked in the hedge fund industry as an analyst covering technology companies. Uh moved here to Singapore about 15 years ago where I've been involved in the financial crime space since. I've done a number of things in this space. I've I've been on

the education side. I did a startup. That startup was acquired by a law firm here in Singapore. So did some time in the law firm which is actually where I had the pleasure of working with Una. Um and then I um um I've also ran the Southeast Asia financial crime strategy for what was Thompson Reuters, subsequently Refinitiv, now the London Stock Exchange Group. Was been a competitor of Hawks prior to joining Hawk. I focused on AML, but moved to Hawk just on the on the basis that I really wanted to learn more about um fraud, which which we do. We do fraud

and AML on a on on that single platform. um fraud and scams is well maybe maybe maybe I think it's it's it'll be interesting for us um Cecilia to to break down the different types of fraud. So when we talk about first party fraud, we talk about Robin robbing the the his employer. Second party fraud, someone colluding with Robin and or using Robin to rob the employer, but there's a it's going through another person or third party fraud where you don't actually

know who the the fraudster is, which is what's driven a lot of the fraud activity today in terms of those those fraud and scams. Does that make sense for these guys? I don't know. Do you think it it helps or? >> Yeah, I guess so. All right. All right. Cool. Um, so so that's a little bit about myself. Honor and privilege to be here. We've got an action-packed show for you. So, this is going to be great. But maybe we'll go over to you you first, Cecilia, and you can just share a little bit about about yourself and and your background as well. >> Yeah. Well, if if you've seen the

Netflix's Tinder Swindler, you know very well how I got thrown into uh the fraud space and that spotlight. Uh I was defrauded back in 2018 in a romance fraud and what was special about this is that I met him in person. We know most of these are happening online. So back in 2018 I had no idea that you could meet your froster in person. I always knew that always was told that they were always these you know dark figures that you didn't know uh on the other side of

of the world. And after that happened to me, I just had this very clear sense of justice and that vision of that what happened to me during the fraud but after the fraud which I will speak about a bit later. I it can't be repeated. I didn't want anyone to have that experience. So I co-founded uh Love Zed with Anna Row um which is a nonprofit to help romance fraud victims. It's a support center where we help them you know step by step take them through you

know reporting to police to banks and it's a think tank as well. So we've held several talks for for police been at Interpol. So it's been really really nice to see that leading with the sense of the human and the victim and as especially about victim behavior as well. A lot of times we talk about the criminal behavior and how do how are they doing what they're doing but how are we behaving as well? Are there signs that we can't see? So my background is actually in tech and UX design. So for a

decade I was making, you know, I was interviewing users and sometimes I was working for a bank in Norway before all this happened to me. And I knew about the strength of digital identity. I knew what debt can do to you. I was not um I was not, you know, I knew about all of these things and it still happened to me. And I think it's super super important that all of us are coming together our understanding that this can happen to anyone. So I think that has been so after a while now I'm coming out with a book as well now in August and

I'm coming out with a new Netflix show too where I'm helping other victims. So it's been great to be along the journey and I'm now an adviser for charm security as well where we are looking at can we create an AI that are an expert in human vulnerabilities. Can we create an AI that can actually see someone being social manipulated because we will lie. We will pretend everything's fine in front of the bankers. It's super important. And how how can we break the spell? Because when I was under that spell, I I was not acting like myself,

but how could they know that? Um, so yeah, so that is what I'm up to these days. >> Fantastic. and and and you know really really you know great work that you're you're you're doing there especially with I I mean the one statistic that that really that really hit home for me was that the amount of money currently lost to fraud and scams is four times the rest of financial crime combined. That's AML terrorist financing all

everything in that in in in that bucket. So um yeah very >> very very good. It is staggering and I I I don't like it but that at least we are talking a lot more about it and we see what the issues are at least we can do something about it that's how I view it before I think not like that but a lot of the times the victims then took all the hits so then it was like who are the true there are no victims because we could blame ourselves and I don't mean it like that but I feel like we're

heading a bit in the right direction for example in Australia with the fraud framework there are different things that we are doing to actually combat it on a bigger scale. Um so that's great >> and we and we need to I mean just to just for the audience here just to share an extra perspective the the fraudsters I mean in in Southeast Asia we talk a lot about the scam centers right and regular people being kidnapped and and forced to to scam accordingly and the

the latest um um bunch of intel suggests that they're no longer kidnapping regular people. They're they they're they're going to Stanford. They're going to MIT. They're promising computer science PhDs, fantastic jobs in Singapore with a detour in another country, kidnapping these guys and making them create deep fake algorithms or or other what we call adversarial AI, right? AI being used by the bad guys to to to scam essentially. And the the

challenge is with your traditional deep fake, you know, it could be Robin talking to Cecilia, but Cecilia sees Jennifer Lopez, for example, right? And I'm moving, I'm talking, I'm doing all of this, and then she sees Jennifer on on the other side of the screen. The latest version of these um deep fake algorithms do not require Robin to puppet Jennifer. Jennifer will will operate autonomously and interact with with Cecilia. So the the challenge there is that AI can now scale essentially.

>> Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. >> For me, I think it's very interesting because we we we talk a lot about, okay, you were stupid or you should have realized and I feel throughout all of it, when will we then say, okay, you you couldn't have known that was a deep fake because still now people are saying, well, you should have realized that was a deep fake. So I think no matter what how good it will be the victims will still be blamed because like mine who I met in person I was blamed you know the online ones of course get the blame because they never met them with these deep fakes now we have a lot of these questions like my god what are we going

to do now now that we won't know and I just have this feeling that no matter what it will be kind of you should have understood that but they're getting so dangerously accurate and that is where I'm sitting like who will take the hit for that who will who will take the blame that is like what are we going to do that. Um, >> yeah. >> Okay. So, let's let's see here. We have a as as I mentioned, ladies and gentlemen, we have a a number of of fantastic uh participants who will be be joining us and and um talking about a

variety of topics here. So, first up, let's bring on Tigram Rosamian. >> Hi everyone. Nice to see you here. Uh yeah, I was just listening it up. Uh it's very very stunning to to get the ideas of uh from from both of you. Um yeah, so my name is Tiger and I'm founder of AML Incubator. We are a fractional compliance outsourcing firm. Uh we're based in Canada but we work

globally. Uh we do have branches in Dubai, Poland, Armenia, Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, some of them I don't even know but I pay for these offices. But uh yeah, so uh we we work globally. We do AMLATF mainly. We help fintech and smaller firms uh to be regulatorated and compliant. We help with licensing uh and designing custom AML programs for

all of them. Uh we use the the all the vendors and softwares that you guys are creating. Probably I'm going to reach out to Hawk after uh after our conversation and we going to talk anyhoo so the uh whole idea for me to touch base on today was uh the rise of fractional compliance leadership. So couple of things I want to mention about it. >> Let me just stop you there for a moment. So ladies and gentlemen, um we we want this to be as bilateral and interaction

as possible. So if anyone has any questions for throughout the whole session, right, for Cecilia, Tigran, myself, please do don't be afraid to to pop them in the into the comments, right? We we would love to hear from you. Sorry, Tigran. Back to you. Take it away. >> Uh yeah, sure, sure, sure. Yeah, if you have questions, let me know. you can leave me here in the uh in the stage as well. I'll help answer some of them if uh uh if you need to. Um so let me just touch base on a couple of things that I

think is very relevant with my small message that I want to give out to the audience. Um the the topics are that the rise of fractional compliance leadership. So fractional compliance leadership is rising because startups don't really need full-time regulators. They need smart targeted uh oversight that scales with them. Uh it gives them senior level decision making without the headcon burden and brings compliance to to the table early, not just when it's

too late really. Uh just like companies brought in the fraction of CFOs, lawyers, uh fractional accountants, compliance is the next step. It's a common trend now. Um if you you guys have no questions I assume I'll move forward and talk about why crypto compliance is growing up fast as well. uh crypto complaints is >> maybe I'll jump in for a question here and this is just literally coming coming up with these off the top of my head too but I think I think it's interesting ne

nevertheless right I mean wouldn't wouldn't wouldn't the antithesis to this be that that if you if you need a fractional compliance officer then and I'm sure you get asked this get get this thrown up a lot then why enter financial services, right? Because surely one of the I mean, you might as well go make an app that tells you how many times a day you pick your nose or something, right? Because if you

want to enter financial services, which is serious, right? Because you're dealing with people's money, then surely you should have a a dedicated compliance officer. Now, this isn't my personal opinion, but I'm sure you you get asked this, right? people people >> sorry I just want to understand the question though like what is the question if um why do we need it >> okay okay okay so so I I I've been in this game for a while right and and

every time the concept of compliance getting outsourced or minimal compliance officers are are installed the perception by a lot of of of people including some regulators is that you're not taking compliance seriously. Right. >> That's that's your rebuttal on that. >> Got it. Got it. No, that's a wonderful point that you're bringing, Robin. Uh it's totally opposite. Okay. Uh when you are having a fractional compliance uh

outsourced and you have fractional compliance as your department, uh technically speaking, they need to have the proper credentials. uh proper experience and ability to run compliance not just for one firm but for many. >> Okay. Uh our expertise for example far beyond is better than the ones that you would be actually having in house. I'll tell you more so the simple example. Okay. Uh typically speaking when we go

into the uh different companies when we are hired we're not hired because of the cost effectiveness of our business model. We are hired because of lack of expertise. We come in we see that there is a department with 300 people. Okay. And we see the the that it's deficient. We fix that up. We hired four and we run it better than this 300 people. >> Okay. That's what fractional compliance outsourcing is. Now, needless to say,

very important, you have limits. You cannot abuse it. One individual cannot be the acting chief compliance officer for 200 firms. You will not be able to handle it. Okay? You need to be able to juggle in between several companies at the same time, meeting your regulatory obligations with the regulator more. So here in Canada for example, okay, our regulator likes fractional compliance outsourcing firms because they know what they do.

Okay. Uh any firm that is coming to Canada, any firm entering and wants essence in this this jurisdiction usually they would go to compliance outsourcing firms to help them out not just with you know establishing themselves in the country but also finding the proper compliance officers for them to bring in house. Okay. Majority of our clients they do not fully outsource their compliance to us at AML incubator. We have a combination

of both. We work in tandem. >> Right. Okay. Great. And and actually that that answers that kind of answers the the second question we have from Oh, they've anonymized themselves. They call themselves LinkedIn user here. Um, okay. Oh, we have another one from LinkedIn. Another LinkedIn user. uh what kind of SLAs or performance metrics should firms impose on fractional compliance service providers to ensure ongoing

effectiveness and responsiveness? >> Okay, great question. Uh typically majority of the regulators have something called effectiveness review. It's an external audit to check the effectiveness of your program. Okay, if they actually pass that audit, that means that they will pass the same audit with the regulator. You're good to go. That's number one. Second thing is is how um effective do you prevent and mitigate stuff in your firm based on the riskbased approach. So an example would

be if you're very heavy on direct losses for your company for fraud, a proper chief compliance officer that is doing and is within the fractional compliance business has to come in and stop it. Okay? You cannot just handle it just because it's like something that you put the check mark on. That's not how it works. You need to be able to show the results. Example would be we were engaged with a firm that was losing 26 million to $30 million per month on

direct loss for fraud. Okay, we came in month and a half after we decreased it to $2 million. That's an SLA. Okay. So these are metrics that you can actually measure and also during your contract you can specify what types of um ways and techniques and mechanism do you want to put in place to measure the performance of the fractional compliance outsourcing firm and an individual that

is taking over their work. >> Great. And then and then um okay let's see here. Warren Simmons has a question. Okay. Okay, I think this is for in general here. Any view on how pig butchering gangs in Asia layer their criminal proceeds through exploiting weak immigration controls in offshore centers like Isisle of Man and using gaming, e- betting and crypto sectors. This might tie in nicely into your your your talk about crypto crime right? >> I can I can that's one of our expertise

>> one as well. >> Uh sorry what's the question? Any view on how pig butchering ganks in Asia layer their criminal proceeds through weak immigration controls to soft offshore centers? Okay. Uh you touch base on 15 different things here. Pig butchering scams are there that are happening. There are two things that is a moving force of the human nature. It's sex or love which has the romance scam stuff happening and greed. Okay. Pig butchering scams. Uh you know people are

greedy. They pay, they send it, they they they irrational. Okay. They they want to do that. So, uh, when you're bringing Yes. Sil, you want to add something? >> Yeah. I'm just like just from a human perspective here. I understand that greed is one of them. But I think just to label all of these people as just greedy and that's why they're ending up in this is kind of too it's just like it's just the word greedy for me that is like uh can be kind of limiting on why

should we help them? They were greedy. >> Oh no no absolutely not help them every time they come in. >> However the the it is penetrated in them. Okay. law, romance scams, uh pig butchering scams, investment scams. There are two moving natures of human behavior that is being penetrated by criminal actors and that's why we have this weak immigration controls. I have no idea what's that to do with the pig butchering scams. I will be very honest

with you. I don't really have a lot of expertise there. I do believe that you're referring to when people get kidnapped like Robin was stating and they make them sit and make the calls and do these scams. I don't really believe that's more of an immigration thing. I do believe overall uh from my opinion I might be wrong more of when it comes to crypto is educational thing. Hey, don't spend send your crypto to someone you don't know. uh don't you know if it's too good to be

true it's probably not true uh things like that rather than uh you know immigration or governments are taking over some of the controls there and preventing it maybe I might be wrong but uh again these are my intakes from from from all of this so >> okay and maybe maybe maybe I'll I'll add one aspect where >> um okay so so Warren I'm I'm I'm going to touch on on the the human I I think that spoke to that right where where we're seeing >> individuals being promised awesome.

So individuals who are like computer science PhDs being offered awesome jobs in Singapore with a detour in another country and then they get they get trafficked in that country to to make these algorithms like I described earlier. But but um one other thing I will add Warren is that um there's this if you want to talk about the the layering of the money right there are there are there are there are enablers out there that have like big big powerful computers right like hard

drives with with with or sorry servers with with with with amazing processors like usually GPU processors that will will take your crypto and then send it to like and embedded in this will have like I don't know like thousands of of wallet addresses send them all around so that it's it's it's really tough to trace the the source of that crypto and then spit it out into a privacy coin. That privacy coin then can get flipped onto on a decentralized exchange to regular Bitcoin and then and then boom. It's tough to to trace that cuz your

your average reggg tech application that that that that is is is out there to to trace these devices can only go like three, five, sometimes eight hops tops, right? But when you have thousands of hops involved in that, it's it's it's really really tough to to to buy that. Sorry. Sorry, Cecilia. Go ahead. >> I just very quickly just come in and it's not technical, but sometimes for me language matters so much on how we talk about the victims and why they're doing what they're doing. I think we do ourselves a disfavor if we continue to

say it was too good to be true. They should have understood they're they're greedy. I just want to finish like I just want to like because for me when we're continuing that we're placing the responsibility of this on victims. I feel we have to say they were manipulated, coerced, abused, they were targeted by highly professional criminals and that's why they were doing what they were doing. Uh I think trying to humanize this tech world and this financial world can this is what we need to do because see where we at when we

are continuing just to say they should have just realized it but what do we mean by that that I I totally get it I should have too you know um what I'm trying to say is that you are not yourself when you're going through this and it we should be able to build something to detect that I just wanted to come with um >> no no fantastic thank you for that. Okay, next up, ladies and gentlemen, we have Le Mabel Delval. Sorry if I mispronounced that. Who who's here to join us to discuss navigating AML

compliance with AIdriven solutions. So, hey, welcome. Oh. Oh, no. We got >> It's actually me. >> Can you hear me? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can hear you fine, John. Sorry. >> Okay. So, um thank you to AML Watcher. Thank you, Robin and Hawk. And nice to meet you, Cecilia. So I I was asked to prepare a question for this which was a bit technical but I'm going to put it into a more human question. So this is about the issue of uh gullible people in the west and

specifically Russian intelligence tricking gullible people in the west. Um my adversary I'm whistleblower from a bank connected with Vladimir Putin in Latafia which got looted 20 years ago. I've been in exile actually for this time and uh my adversary is a multilateral development bank called the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Now this bank if you will look at their website has hundreds of

pages about how they love whistleblowers. They love transparency. They don't care about profits because their focus is on making the world better. Uh it goes on and on. And when you have an actual dealing with this bank, what they do is so opposite to what they say they're doing that it's shocking, but it somehow tricks everybody. And in this case, after the assets were embezzled from this bank, which was identified by a European court as Vladimir Putin's money launderer, uh

the Latvian government secretly paid the EBRD Development Bank to invest into the bank to make it appear that the bank was not looted even though it was. and evidence has come out from uh I have letters and emails from Euroat in the European Union and the SFO in the UK that they're aware that Latia and the EBRD are doing this. However, they're waving the normal accounting rules for them, saying that uh this this act where

Latia secretly paid the EBRD to pretend to invest in a looted bank in order to make the bank appear that it's not looted was okay because it's somehow in the public interest and the EBRD is uh interested in society and not interested in greed to use that word. But somehow by framing everything is that they are all altruists even though what they're doing is a serious organized crime and that they're against greed uh that somehow they this is cover for them and

it seems to fool everybody. So how to fix this in the west or like uh is there some way to uh wake up western people including AML professionals that uh when someone's talking about altruism all the time that uh you know maybe you should look deeper to see what their real motives are. >> Yeah. I've I feel like we had a bit of a chat before it started and I always trying to say like the people who talk

the loudest about the great work that they're doing a lot of time they're just trying to hide kind of what's really happening behind the scenes like I've you're a whistleblower I'm a whistleblower too. I know like I think when you've been part of it and you can see it what is really going on um and when you can see the dirty business of it all um it tends to be quite jarring and I think for myself who's been one individual in all of that um it has been kind of difficult because I think as a

victim as well when you've been a victim of something you're not being and in this case you're not being viewed as someone that is smart you are stupid that's or gullible this this is why it happened to you to then get that notion out about this is not right. What is going on? There are something deeper here. It's been really really difficult to have those questions up in the air. I don't know if that but it's just my little two cents um from my own experience. >> Yeah, thank you. I mean a lot of the stuff about yeah whether you blame the

victim or you blame the perpetrator. I mean a lot of Latin will tell you that it's my fault that I'm in exile because I couldn't shut up and I did this whistleblowing. So this is this is my fault. And I say, well, I thought it was the fault of the people who stole the money from the bank that this whole thing happened. I didn't think it was my fault for reporting it. But um yeah, there's a lot of this twisting around and a lot of psychological stuff about like uh how I must be a bad person because I'm against the EBRD and since the EBRD wrote on their website that

they are heroes, then I must be against all the wonderful things they're doing. >> Oh wow. Yeah. I think when you speak up highly about something you've seen um you will always get some I will say enemies um but my froster has a lot of enemies too. So I think no matter what when you put yourself out there um for example in in my case there was one one bank that this criminal was his favorite bank. Not going to name it now but I sent in a lot of documents to this bank

and they were all approved. I put it in now into a very simple AI identification of documents engine, you know, nothing special and they could see that they were fake. And I got hit by that because I was like, you expected me, you know, to be able to see all the red flags, but as a major bank, you approve these documents who are very easily they are very clearly fake. So like kind of the yeah the procedures that I sometimes see in in in the financial institutions are

not up to the standards at all. And >> well this is a very good point about banks that show off uh how compliant they are by the huge number of people they have in the compliance department but then you send an obviously fraudulent or moneyaundering transfer through the bank and all of them miss it every single time. So, it's sort of that they're all for show and they're not really looking for anything. >> Yeah. >> And I think I could argue the other way though, John. I mean I mean look

ultimately, right, we are up against the human mind, right? And and and there is no AI, no number of people like like as as humans, we we we're messed up like that, right? When there's a will, there's a way we figure out. And the criminals are probably right up there in terms of determination and and and and figuring this out. And they're smart. Let's be real, right? They're they're smart as well, right? So, I I I think this will be an ongoing challenge.

um a and and you know I I I wouldn't I wouldn't be so um negged out on on on the banks from that front because from I've got a lot of friends in in the banking space a lot of friends who are you know heads of compliance they're trying they're trying hard right they're trying to bring in the latest technologies they're trying to hire different types of of people the the latest trend that we're seeing is that they're combining fraud and AML departments working together to try and and not only try and and prevent the

fraud, but to to figure out where the money is getting laundered after once it's happened. I just I just think that because we're up against some some very smart people, it's it's it's it's not easy, right? >> But but I think this is the issue that when you are coming with critique, I don't mean that they're not doing anything and that everyone's bad and I hate banks. I have just seen some some insider information that wasn't quite good when it comes to the protection, you know, and I I know I

know a lot of banks are doing great work, you know, it's actually more directed to to John's comment because because to add to your comment as well, Cecilia, I mean, these criminals are are are psychology experts, right? They know how to get in your brain. They've studied all the latest techniques and and and with that example that I gave earlier, they're feeding that information into the adversarial AI to to work your brain, you know, on an automated front, right?

So, I I yeah, I I I I I agree with both of you to a degree, but I I I think we we we we have to, you know, recognize what we're we're up against here, right? Well, thank you both for positive comments and uh yeah, I agree that there are some people really trying to stop the AML. There's other people just holding on to their desks who don't want to see the unpleasant information, but there are some people out there fighting it and uh yeah, and about the

uh psych how the criminals are psychologists and they trick people. They know exactly where the weaknesses are and they can trick everybody. Uh it's it's something to think about as well. Thanks. Thank you, John. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> All right, ladies and gentlemen, next up we have Lutz. This time we have him for reals. So, um, L come and join us and and and take the stage, sir. >> Hey, hello. Good morning, >> ma'am. Sorry.

I apologize. >> No, no, it's okay. So um I'm loving in Puerto Rico with uh plenty of fintech and international banking in in the field of compliance risk h risk management and risk monitoring and today you're just talking about what are those AML challenges and uh that we facing out

with the AI role in driving what is the scalability and efficiency in this nowadays uh regarding with the complexity that the compliance in AML have lately this 2025 um because AML is no longer what is a regulatory tickbox is it's more a strategy for business driver uh right now it's just not only what is my cause

of being compliant is because it is it is pretty hard right now to to try to be in compliance with regulator but not invest in a technology that uh will make you successful with the with the compliance uh with the emergence emerging technologies that we have with the emerging risk that are facing seen regarding uh

crypto scams, crypto criminals that are using the system and then burdens that uh right now we having that is a a challenge and the regulator have a really high expectance that every financial institution evolve and fight the risk with technology because right now what we are facing is an evolution with

technology to make the crimes. So now in in the aspect of financial institution need to invest in that in technology to fight for those those crimes. So uh as the regula regulatory complexity is greater uh there are more stricter global regulations and we are facing uh fast positive increase if we do not tune up uh our system in in a a in a

better uh way to be sure that uh that we can face those regulatory requirements. um those emerging threats a apart for the crystal scam we are facing ransomware uh crowdfunding typologies to just to mention a few and uh we are also facing the regular the the resource constraint because we need in in the

institution we need to face what is a that balance between the cost of being compliant Ian with uh the operational efficiencies because if if we are not balanced that will be face an institution that will driving all the resources to compliance and that is not the purpose as well because uh every institution need to be profitable. they

do to uh their investors, they're due to their customer because they need to have a stable institution. And if we don't balance what those cost in compliance are within regarding with the the profitability and that profitability uh as the cost of compliance increases, we need to to be sure that we can scalate the business to generate more profit and we can use the compliance as

a driver to increase those those profitability. This is great. >> It's great and and and thank you so much. Thank you so much for that. Um actually this is a from from what you're describing and sharing I I think this is a great opportunity to to answer a question from Priyanka Ry here who's who's come up with um and and hey Priyanka I actually know her personally. Shout out to Priyanka here. Um, and her question for you is, as AI rapidly

transforms the AML CFT landscape, offering both advanced detection and new risks, criminals are finding increasingly sophisticated ways to exploit these same technologies for financial crime in real time. How can compliance officers leverage tools to not only react to red flags, but actively engage with frontline teams and external stakeholders? crowdsourcing atypical cases or suspicious patterns and what practical strategies do you recommend for compliance seems to act as

as effective. Great >> long question but but I think I think has answered some of it but but if you want to continue then I think that'd be great. Thanks. Yeah, most uh in fact we need to search for a good system uh that incorporate AI. So we can in first uh download the down what are those files positive to get more time in

in our actual resources without a hire more person because sometimes you will need a battalion of persons to manage only the the the daytoday volume of transactions or or or suspicious activity report. Um but the the the real uh challenge is to acquire one system that incorporate AI that help

you to manage what are those false positive and what is a that that system that can predict what will be the pattern of your H customer in in in fact to download that download downgrade that volume of the the potential false positive becoming uh the real positive and incorporate as well

the the the identification of those of those activities that the customer are not used to do and just doing in in a in a real time monitoring system because right now what we need to to be is one step ahead of those criminals that are trying to use the fed the financial system to

perpetrate those crimes. So my recommendation is and there are are many um go to have it one system that provide you a real time monitoring that provides you predictive analysis and reduce those false positive that just only create noise around the day-to-day compliance and reallocate that time that you're saving with the with the financial intell as unit team

so they can do their their deeper analysis, their investigation. >> Thank you much for that. Hey Liz, thank thank you. Thank you. That that's great. And and and and for for everybody on the line here, um just a just as a a quick like summary, right? What when Liz is talking about reducing false positives, she's the actual type of AI she's talking about using is what we call machine learning, right? if the the system learns a particular pattern, a particular way of of of reducing that

that of of automating that process and reducing that operational cost essentially, right? Um and and it's something that that that we actually offer at Hawk as well as the concept of anomaly detection where if you have as much data on the customer sitting in the same place, you use what we call a deep learning algorithm to identify stuff that a human might not necessarily be able to pick up and then they they will they will do that as well. Um hey >> just sorry about that. Yeah, I just

think No, no, I just think it's so interesting because like what I love most about like these AIdriven solutions is as I say a lot of the times yet they will be able to see the cues that I feel sometimes humans won't be able to see. They will have the patience and they can have kind of the empathy. We can kind of what I would like to do more of is more having more of an active and human informed way of doing this where for example you can put more context into for example if there is a transaction that is flagged the people on the ground in the call centers that are sometimes

maybe speaking to someone will they be able to kind of pick up if they're distressed will they be able to pick up these type of things if they're sitting there being annoyed. But I I I'm I'm very excited about actually using it for good and that we can actually hopefully see some of some of the signs that we would have ignored. So >> I I would add to that Cecilia and say that that you know humans plus AI is more effective than just AI by itself. Like so never take out human in the loop. It's

>> it's Robocop, not Terminator, right? That's that's the way we should we we we should approach this. So hey um thank you so much for your your your your um your time uh loose we we're going to move to our next guest who is um Mangalisa. So thank you thank you loose really appreciated for your time really really good stuff there and let's move on to um Mangalisa. Mangalisa are you in the vicinity?

Hello. Hello. Oh, wow. Okay. Um, and by the way, ladies and gentlemen, while while you're on the line, please do keep those those questions flowing, right? We have some some some wonderful guests here. We can still answer any of the questions that that some of the previous guests um may have have burned. So please, so while we're waiting for Mangalisa, hey, do you want to just um comment? Um Cecilia,

>> yeah, see I see one question there where I would leave like No, is she here? Are you here? >> Hello. >> Guess not. >> Anyways, that was a fake um um fake start. Um but I saw one question. And it's like what are the early psychological indicators that a person may be under real time manipulation such as in pig butchering scams or remote access fraud. And for me this is like such a it's so close to my heart because

it's all about just human behavior. And I would say we are changing but sometimes not as quickly and as visible at times but they will install a bit of sense of urgency or anxiety. Um a lot of the times we have been told what to say when we decide to call in or do a transaction or it will be stopped. Um a lot of the times as well if we are in a new relationship or if we see a new investment opportunity or someone has

come into our life we will be overly you know positive or idealistic. Um a lot of the times the frosters will kind of tell us what to say. So we will have some scripted phrases and that's why I always trying to say now we are creating this AI a charm. I'm always like what do we do when people are lying you know a lot of times you won't say my I have a boyfriend of two weeks they will say if you say that you won't be able to send the transfer and we want to be able to send the transfer so we are

lying how can we detect lies and I think that is really interesting like now that we have machine learning and AI and like we have all these things are there a way and I love kind of looking into that because sometimes we are not honest when I took up the loans I didn't say that I was taking up loans wants to send to my boyfriend who was in danger of his enemies. That would have been I said it was for was renovating my house. So I think it's really interesting how with time now they will they will really manipulate us to you know try to sound

as convincing. Um but there is there is says there are several things here in different ways both in behavior um in our behavior our change of both spend and and the language. Um but yeah it's as I say this is not easy and I I that is what I always feel like when I've been doing talks and I have sometimes banking employees the main question they have how do we get them to break this spell? How do I get them to understand they're being defrauded? And that breaks

my heart because it's not one globe fit all because we all are different with our behaviors, our pasts, just how we are as personalities. Some people are a bit more gullible and naive, but that is not a crime. Always try to go back to that. Yeah, it might be qualities that makes us more susceptible for fraud, but that doesn't make it something that we should just, you know, let let them be gone with whatever they're doing because they're being gullible. Um, but yeah, >> but but it reminds me of our our

discussion prior to to going live, right? I mean, ladies and gentlemen, for those of you um who aren't aware, I'm I'm the I'm the vice chair for the Apac chapter for the Global Coalition to Fight Financial Crime. And for our first conference in Singapore a couple of years ago, we had the honor of having um Cecilia come up and and and and give a talk. So, if anyone does get the opportunity to see Cecilia talk, please do jump on it. It's it's fantastic. and and we were sharing earlier, right? One of the examples that was was given um

prior to Cecilia going on stage was the example of the Japanese lady who was scammed 300 grand um on the basis that her quote unquote boyfriend was was stuck on the moon, needed 300 grand to get back to Earth and and and she paid it, >> right? And and when when when this was shared in in in the conference, there was a lot of snickering, a lot of laughter, and and Cecilia got up and said, "Look, it's not funny." Yeah. The

the like I said earlier, these guys really do know how to work your brain. And um you know, we we we shouldn't be laughing at this. And it was it was it was a fantastic you know stop the audience cut the tension and and and the and >> I do I do understand why we want to make it a bit lighter because it's very heavy stuff that we are talking about at times but I was at a conference in London last year too and it was really interesting to see there was an ethical hacker that

was on stage and he said if I'm going to get money the quickest way is to pretend to be a young beautiful women and go on Tinder. And the entire audience were laughing. And I'm sitting there and this is a 5050 split crime. This is not a gendered crime. There is just as much like men as women. And I think is I it makes me really irked. Why would anyone come forward and as the man who might be sitting in that audience who have been

defrauded and everyone's just laughing at him? We all deserve love. We all deserve connection and we're all vulnerable when we're out there. That is just human nature and we need to trust. And I think that is why it hits me so hard because me with my own story, I've been laughed at. So it just it just I think it just hits a very personal perspective when um um yeah >> and actually we have a question from from LinkedIn user, anonymous question here asking for a little more detail on

on how you got defraud. It says it's great time here. So please please do share it. >> Yeah. Um well I was I had recently moved to London and I think that is part of what we should be bringing into um our KYC. Uh I was not viewed as a vulnerable person. I you know had a masters. I was a young woman. I was just on Tinder but I was new in London. I had no family and friends around me. So when I matched up with this guy I just felt incredibly lucky. Um, he was the CEO of a big

diamond company and we met in person several times and he became my boyfriend. Unfortunately for me, he was in a very dangerous position at his job because he's gotten threats from his competitors. But everything was going to be fine. Unfortunately, nothing went better. It went just went worse. And after a while, he said that he couldn't use his credit cards anymore because his enemies could see where he was. Hindsight is a gift here. you know, the amount of questions I should have asked. You know, I always think about the five

W's. A lot of times if we ask why are you in this position, if you continue to ask the why questions and people are lying, it won't make sense. So, I wish I would have done that, but I didn't cuz I trusted him. So, I gave him uh a credit card and he started to use it. Fortunately for me, I got a lot of credit because he employed me in his company and those were fake. So at the end of it, I had in the end taken up nine loans and over £200,000 in just 54 days. So it was an incredible

amount of money. Uh the interest on these loans were super high. So I had to both sell my flat. I had to file for bankruptcy. I was made a suspect with the UK police and I was taken to court by four banks in Norway because I couldn't pay my debt. So my journey afterwards and that is why I'm always trying to say trying to protect people from revictimization and what can happen afterwards is hugely important because the fraud was one

thing that was 6 months I'm still bankrupted you know that's seven years after I I can't get a credit card I can't get a mobile phone on a payment plan um if I rent I have issues these are very long-term um problems that you have of course But of course the emotional part as well where well yeah I thought he was my boyfriend and kind of he cheated on me as well because he had a lot of other women that he was boyfriend with. So I think that as well

is another layer to to these type of crimes that very few people are really listening to because it's more about the money lost because I think when this happened to me the question I got the most was how could you do this? And I really wanted to rewire the questions, not how I could how I could do this, but how could he do this? Why was it so simple and easy for him to travel around the world on a fake passport? How could he use my credit card? How could he pay with my credit

card on sites where he shouldn't have? There were just so many where I wish there was more friction, more stops, more time to pause, more time to have a breather. Uh because they put you under so much pressure and stress that you're not thinking clearly. So that is the short form of it. But yeah, so >> and for those of you who who are

interested, it's it's a it's actually a documentary on Netflix called The Tinder Swindler, and that's actually based on on Cecilia here. So >> yeah, I was cuz when I wasn't taken seriously when a lot of fraud victims we go and try to report it to the police, sometimes they view that as civil. This was your boyfriend, you know, so he couldn't have defrauded you. Well, I mean like people will do a lot to defraud people. They will pretend to be your boyfriend. It's the intent, but it's difficult to prove intent. How do

you prove that someone didn't love you if they say, "Well, I did." And I think that is what we're up against. And so, I decided to go to the press when I felt that no one was taking my story seriously. That was back in 2019. And then the Netflix documentary came in 22. So, I recommend everyone to watch it. I think it's beautifully made. I think it shows the true uh consequence uh what happens afterwards, how you're feeling. And I can say I was put into acute psych psychiatric ward by my mom because she

didn't dare to take care of me anymore because she was scared what I was going to do cuz I knew I'd lost everything. And and I think my worst fears came true when you know the the police went after me and the banks went after me and looked at me as the culprit here where I say like I think we shot ourselves in the foot by doing that for several years because I can see where we are as a society when this is the number one crime. Um but I think it's been viewed

as victimless that there are no one that actually is taking the hit. you know, the banks is just reimbursing the money. And I want to say as an advocate on behalf of victims, I'm super glad that the banks are reimbursing victims, but that I don't want it to happen in the first place. Um, and that is what I I'm not like that I'm saying like, oh, now we get our money back, so no worries. Um, this is horrible for the people that are experiencing it. And I think and I thank you so much for the nice comments.

Um I I I think it's just so important to humanize this crime. Um is people are being taken advantage of and the money are not just not being lost into nothing. And we don't want this money to end up in criminals hands too. I have sometimes people are saying well you were naive and kind of it's not Simon's fault. Simon was name of the froster. But I am just saying that being naive is not a crime. What he did to me was a crime. And I think we need to be much

more patient and nice to each other um when we talk about fraud victims. Uh it's called the Tinder Swindler. And my new Netflix show, Love Con Revenge, uh where I'm now helping other victims, which is really really nice because the more stories we have and I believe in storytelling. I believe that can really change things that we know about all the different types of fraud types that is out there. You know, the new tactics that they're using, the new trends we need to know and being able to give that to others is really Yeah,

>> thank you. Thank you so much for that. Um, okay, let me check. Okay, we we have a lot of wonderful comments here. >> I don't see questions per se. So maybe what I'll do is I'll I'll wrap it up right now and and say look ladies and gentlemen thank you for attending this webinar. Um again a apologies Una couldn't be here but I I you know we we tried we tried. Um >> we did very well Robin I have to say you

took it. >> So look we we covered we we covered the the technology aspect and and how AI could be used for for good and for bad. We covered the potential solutions. We covered AML and fraud and the convergence of that and how that's that's that that's that's important. Um we we covered what this means for compliance officers or um and last but by no means least and I think this is the most important part. We covered the human aspect to this. Okay. And um let's

not let's not lose that ladies and gentlemen in our in our day-to-day work and and and move forward. So, so again thank you for attending watchers engage. Uh again this will be the there'll be many more more of these to follow. Please give your feedback. Please please be in touch and and and we will continue to grow this community and and host these shows accordingly. Thank you all so much for your time. Good night. >> Thank you. [Laughter]