AI Fireside Chat: Robin Lee with ICA President Pekka Dare

hello and welcome I'm Becka dear the president of the international compliance Association and I'm delighted to be joined today by Robin Lee uh Robin thank you so much for joining us for a fir side chat U there is no fire we're in Singapore today so too warm for a fire Robin but it's a virtual fire conceptual fire we're here today to discuss an amazingly important interesting fast moving topic AI so thrilled that Robin you've been working with the Ia we're just about to launch a new certificate uh a new qualification

in Ai and I'm sure we'll talk about that as well but this is a topic which is is changing every aspect of of our lives and will continue to grow in importance so is great to see you and thanks for joining us so Robin perhaps if we we start off maybe could you say a little bit about your background uh for for the audience it would be great sure so my background in a nutshell uh comprises s my um Silicon Valley I was there for 6 years yeah then I went to Wall Street where for four years I worked in the hedge fund industry as an analyst

covering technology companies and for the past 13 14 years or so I've been involved in the compliance Financial crime space worked with alongside you at at at at IA for a bit did my own startup that start startup was acquired work for what was Thompson Reuters and retive now London Stock Exchange group where I ran the strategy for the southeast Asia um compliance practice and then most recently I did uh 3 and a half years at

a UK AI um startup uh in the financial crime space as well as um now at H Ki where I am the general manager APAC um for our our APAC business the first question I've got um for you which is you hear a lot you can't move without the Press coverage we'll see in our daily lives but what what's your t on how AI is actually really shaping business today it's becoming part and parcel of our da lives I mean arguably

it has been for a while longer than we PR it just becomes more noticeable right we see ourselves doing less and less if that makes sense of the busy work so we talk about the efficiency perspective the the term I I I've seen thrown around is replacing blood with code okay and um and so you know if you look at especially with with the emergence of generative AI chat GPT and and applications like that that is becoming

more of a a reality right yeah yeah in terms of I guess the there'll be threats with this as well I'm sure we'll talk about that but also opportunity so what's your take on on both kind of the the positives and the you know the the opportunities and the risks as well in terms of moving AI more into industry particularly obviously from our perspective that we both care a lot about and is is compliance of financial crime well how do you see those threats and opportunities there um so let me

touch on the opportunities first and if we take a look at the history of compliance before even Financial crime was a thing right was it was a was a Subs seor of compliance you know the role of the compliance officer originated in 1986 right and the original compliance officers a lot of them I've met anyway were sales people that couldn't make their numbers very true and then it evolved to accountants and lawyers that didn't want to do accounting or legal

work anymore right but because the the regulations just started uh blowing in yeah um and becoming more more dense and intense right and then um and this is the key part here it became more of an operational risk practice because as compliance teams got bigger and bigger and bigger you know you have to operationalize that whole thing I mean if you look at a lot of the tier one Banks you can have you know tens maybe hundreds of thousands of compliance officers in some cases right and what I

see I've seen happening over the past you know two three years is the technologist right someone who understands data science and and and whatever in fact I did a panel um about 5 years ago now and I panel one of my panelists said that the the head of compliance is going to need to have a PhD in data science back then yeah and so this part here that I mentioned the operationalize element right there's a lot of busy work that goes with that

like checking documents and and and what have you this is where a AI I think will come in and help replace the blood with the code it's it's definitely an opportunity um just to give a a very quick example of that you know we talk about Microsoft co-pilots right and and and Co pilot which is a generative AI tool U being being being being thrown into a lot of reg Tech applications the deposition of the case where you usually have to get all the details together put it put it all in and write the case up can now be done in minutes instead of

hours yeah um in facilitating that that's an example of that I see a couple up threads um one that really stands out to me is this concept of materiality what are you applying the AI to and if it's a material activity right especially in the financial crime space you better have have have some aspect of how the code was written where it's coming from etc etc because if things go wrong especially in our industry the repercussions are significant understanding how it works I

mean anal always use as like a car under under the Bonnet you don't necessarily have to know everything about how that car works but the fundamental understanding of how that's being design so you can explain ability as so understanding whether it's material is is obviously key and then I'm sure we'll talk about what skills our audience needs to to cope with the fast moving pace of all of this absolutely yes um why do you think adopting AI is so critical for digital business today

because obviously you know the pandemic massively accelerated you know digitization all around the world so so why do you think adopting AI is is is is really crucial for that digital kind of business that we we all do St sure so there the efficiency angle I mean with efficiency comes cost savings right so I think there's there's that aspect I think that um there's the user experience angle as well right people today expect convenience right it's got

to be quick it's got to be quick it's got to happen right if if there's any delay in that you're you're ruining the customer experience why should someone why might someone want to study the IC certificate in AI well I think AI is is is is definitely already part and parcel of our our working lives especially in the industry that we're in right now and I think it' only be right if as practitioners we we upskill ourselves and and and bring ourselves up to up to par with the

technology so that we we have a good understanding of how to apply it to our day-to-day what are the key elements of AI that people are going to grasp when they do the program Robin first and foremost to get an understanding of what AI is then to get an understanding of what ethics is so we we we we level set on that front then we look at the applications and what this all means and last but by no means least we we we have an intense razor Shar Focus that comes with all of this on the Practical

aspects right so how it's actually being applied in reality yes sir great yes sir stuff great so who do you think would get the most value out of out of doing this new ICA quantification certificate in AI Robert when we sat down with a and decided we were going to do this course we we wanted to to make it as accessible to as many people as possible yeah and the way in which we've designed it from a a user experience perspective anyone can come in and take this so and and

that coupled with the fact that that you know AI is is is as we you know mentioned before right going to affect everyone's lives and and and and it's going to be part and parcel of their dayto days I think you know as a result of that you know just like you know you have AML courses antiban and Corruption courses etc etc that that that are you know essential not even essential but mandatory yes yes I think this will will eventually sit there as well yeah so

basically everyone in in the business needs to engage with this so it's it's been designed to be a broad a broad spectrum of of you know suitability yeah great what about I guess we we you know the course is going to be cot off the press it's going to be shiny and new and we were just talking before we we started recording about the fact we're going to need to constantly update it so because things are moving so quickly so what what for you are the are the recent kind of seismic developments breakthroughs in terms of AI that

they're really you know excited you what do you see that's this really just happening recently that that makes you know potentially big changes coming sure so I'll start off by say saying that AI has actually been around since the 50s okay so it's it's a it's a um a very um General topic and the and what will happen is every every now and again a new um strand of AI will emerge or a new technique within AI will emerge yeah there will be an there will be there'll

be tons of funding put into that that industry tons of of backing Etc will get hyped up the technology will Peak out at a certain point men crash and we'll have what we called an AI winter right right and we've had two of those two significant versions of that to date but the latest Drive of AI mainly comes from machine learning deep learning and more recently generative AI so I think I think those especially generative AI we've all seen what what that chat GPT

could do right so I think that's that's a significant um movement in our in that space that has has that that is exciting uh however um what I think people haven't fully come to terms with is is the fact that on the hardware side specifically on the chip side and this is where the Wall Street Experience um comes in comes in useful the advancements that have been made with GPU technology specifically to artificial intelligence is is is equally

exciting we've all seen Terminator you know we we we we don't we don't end up we don't want to go there till we don't want to postapocalyptic wasteland out look out the window with robots destroying us and hunting for us and all that we don't want to go there Robin do we we don't want to go there but what are the limitations of where we can go with AI where did the the bearers actually stop there's a lot of hype in the space MH so where where are those limitations at the moment so so it's funny that you mentioned Terminator right because a couple of times the

tagline I've been associated with is it's RoboCop not Terminator right and if you look at the original 1987 RoboCop movie Yes not the new remake which terrible um the tagline was uh part man part machine all cop right and and for financial crime Fighters you know in particular right I think that holds tremendous weight and and relevance right it's it's definitely you can never replace that that human aspect and and

look The Regulators don't want want you to replace that human aspect right so so I think um there's a line right yeah and um I don't think it's it's possible to cross that yeah humans are always going to be involved in the space around compliance Financial crime just in maybe a slightly different capacity exactly what about misconceptions then people what do you think what do you think people get wrong what what what misconceptions are there out there around AI this concept is called The

Singularity and that is where where artificial intelligence you know technology Etc becomes you know so relevant that humans become irrelevant I don't think we're we're anywhere near that yet right yeah yet I mean you know don't ask me this question in in in in 50 years time where we're all slaves to to our digital Overlord I think in the in the interim especially with respect to our day today we're we're not there yet yeah and it's it'll be a w okay okay well that's

that's positive what skills do you think are particularly important for people as as we start to engage more and more with AI and every day what what what are the skills that we need for you for our audience here I actually think you can Buck it into into to three elements right um there's that that regulatory stuff technical compliance etc etc that will never go away right so I I I think you you you you definitely need those um

the second is the technology technical skills right so I think you know you don't necessarily have to be able to be a data scientist but you need to have a good understanding of data science I think statistics as a as a subset of that and and and maybe a little bit of coding just enough to understand and to to to tell someone else how to do it basically sure sure right um I think prompt engineer engineering or prompting uh that we we we use in in uh for for geni in particular is interesting and

and um you know a lot of I think is is very straightforward for me because I grew up watching Star Trek so you know when Star Trek would I say computer show me a picture of yeah me and in in a um a ninja outfit or something like that it will do that right being a a a chat GPT Whisperer um is is is definitely a a a skill set I couldn't agree more that that is always going to be there and it's becoming absolutely essential the compliance professional now is changing the ethical culture within organizations

and and that is very much in the soft skill space isn't it as well so okay so what about people that aren't really engaged with AI how how how relevant is that if you're not yet using AI in your daily role how relevant is AI to those people out there who look at the saying well it doesn't really affect me in my role I think AI is is is a sub is merely a subset of technology and if you look at the way the world's headed you know technology is is inevitable so back at

the day again when I was an analyst in Wall Street it technology was very fragmented and and and had different lanes and you knew which lane you were in right right so you if you're a Semiconductor Company you're just involved in semiconductors if you're there's a hard there's Hardware software maybe an internet company or two the evolution was clear in Silicon Valley as to what was what the next step would be today everyone's a technology company car companies a technology

Ikea is a technology arguably right if you if you go on their webs so I I think it's it's it's just inevitable that that everybody is going to have to come to grips of this and and with AI like I said being an extension of technology I you know you got to get with the program man yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely okay so um what about unintended consequences with technology we always hear about

these and we're already hearing it with AI you know unfortunate unintended things that happen as a result of of AI systems or decisions made as a result of AI so do you think the people developing Ai and researchers where where where is their responsibility Andor accountability for the consequences of of the tools that they're creating so look I think um AI regulation is is on its way in Asia and

here in Europe right they just recently yeah as of the the date of this recording you know still there's been a a bunch of of Regulation AI act and all of that yeah um so you kind of have to be responsible but if I was to if I was to you know delve on that deeper I think that you that the that the developers of this technology need to you know have that there needs to be some sort of AAL ability and and and and

and need to need to keep that accountability in mind but also again that uh you know apply ethical think thinking and and and and and what have you to to their designs I mean if' also to give you an example right I was in San Francisco at a Google Launchpad event and one of the um newly established at the time cryptocurrency um was there giving a talk and it was it was a for a privacy

coin okay so for those of you who aren't aware right a privacy coin is a cryptocurrency whereby the sender the recipient and the amount being transferred U is is shielded by a very very sophisticated layer of encryption okay and and you know having done a little bit of work in the space I I I saw what they were how they were describing and I was like my mind was blown this is brilliant stuff these are very smart MIT grads um and what they had what they have put together was was

phenomenal and I put my hand up and I was like wow this guys this is this is great stuff but you know you're going to be you're essentially going to be you know leveraged highly leveraged by the bad guys right terrorists um you know money launders etc etc right and um and the GU responsible me was like yeah but Robin you know I could create a knife and stab someone with that and that's that's equally as dangerous but this is

a bit like the NRA's argument though wasn't it with guns don't kill people humans kill people yeah yeah and I I was like but you're developing this specifically to to hide to mask these these these transactions and and and and senders and recipients right you're you're going to get in Big Time trouble for this and and and they they just completely you know Overlook that so so that that's the kind of behavior I don't think that that that we should be be seeing in our our industry right yeah so

what about on that then should there be specific requirements around transparency when it comes to AI absolutely we want glass boxes not black boxes right okay let's unpack the kind of ethical Dimension to this as well can you maybe talk us through some of the the ethical implications of AI because there is a lot of those and and the the concept of an AI ethicist for me maybe we could just unpack that a little bit so this isn't I have not seen this in in financial services yet but if you look

at at many of the big tech companies they have someone working for them with the job title AI eth assist yeah and I think this will hit this will hit Financial Services yeah and you know a couple of aspects around that are the the Privacy aspects right and how how how how accessible who has access to the data and why and where does the data sit etc etc um AI bias right we we saw um

instances in the US of algorithm credit loan um algorithms right yeah um discriminating against black people right so we need to take that out and then what I mentioned earlier X ai explainable ai right um how explainable is your algorithm in terms of the AI empasis uh what I find fascinating about this role and I'm just reading up the iPad here because there's so much involved with it I think it's it's um but it's interesting nevertheless um developing and implementing um internal

AI ethics policies okay uh conducting ethical risk assessments training and awareness reviewing and Advising on on AI projects monitoring and evaluation stakeholder engagement research and Innovation crisis management and Reporting and the skill sets that will will come with this are tech technical knowledge ethical judgment and communication not too far from what I described earlier yeah it's really interesting you say that I think as you say within five years I think every

financial institution human mind corporate is going to have an AI ethicist and I see the the FCA and the UK consultation paper last year they they put it out to Industry that that there should be a a sort of mandated role and that that kind of Confluence of ethics and and Technology I think is is obviously really good opportunity for all of our our viewers to maybe think about getting into that space as well so most definitely yeah so Robin it's always a pleasure mate uh thank you so much for joining me it's good to see and

um thank you for watching uh I hope you found that useful it's always a pleasure to talk with Robin I think the the fir side chat conversation approach is a great way to tackle topics and we're looking forward to doing many more of these in the future uh so thank you very much for your time uh and take care thank you goodbye