“The Company Tried to Kill Me” — Wirecard’s Whistleblower

The company didn't stop its attempts intimidating me even after I left the company. Towards the end of my stay in Wirecard, the company tried to kill me. >> [music] >> Welcome to The Laundry, the podcast connecting AML compliance and financial crime to the real world. I'm your host Marit, the CEO of Stride, and in this episode we are asking what is the future

of whistleblowing? The Wirecard scandal has become the subject of legend in the financial industry. The German payment business, formerly worth tens of billions of euros, collapsed following the exposure of a massive accounting fraud and financial misconduct, originally reported by the Financial Times and picked up by the authorities. The fall of Wirecard sent shockwaves across the financial industry as well as right to the very top of politics. There have been Netflix specials devoted to it

and there are still fugitives on the run. But none of it would have been possible without the actions of today's guest. To call out financial misconduct and illegal practices takes enormous strength, courage, and determination. But what are the costs for the individuals involved and what does this look in a post-Wirecard world? In today's episode, we discuss our guest's journey from whistleblower to startup founder, the hidden impact of calling

out financial crime and wrongdoing, and how companies can stamp out bad practices early on. To dive into this topic, I'm here with Pav Gill, founder and CEO of Confide. Welcome to The Laundry, Pav. >> Hi, thank you for having me. >> Uh what should our listeners know about you, your background, and Confide? >> I'm a lawyer by training, um, which is very strange given that I became a whistleblower. You know, uh,

lawyers are not generally, um, known to become one. But, yeah, you know, started at Magic Circle law firms, Allen & Overy, Clifford Chance, King & Spalding, um, and then was hired by Wirecard eventually, uh, was forced into a whistleblowing situation, then moved into the crypto space, um, saw the ups and downs of that, and, yeah, decided to just found Confide, a company that hopefully, uh, with its products would help businesses, would help employees, and lawmakers in making the world a more

ethical place. >> Thank you for the introduction. And I just got to say to our listeners that it feels I mean, I'm super proud to have you on the show because, uh, in June 2022, uh, we had Dan McCrum from the Financial Times on our podcast. It was one of the first episodes we did in English talking about the Wirecard scandal. And I read his book, and I read about you, and, yeah, feels like an honor to have you on and talk about, uh, whistleblowing. So,

let's dive in. I really want to start to discuss I Well, I'm a startup founder myself, and I would love to discuss your personal journey from whistleblower to startup founder. And you have been described many times as a reluctant whistleblower. Is that a fair summary? >> Yeah, it's definitely fair. Um, I would say that I was pretty much forced into that situation because the company didn't stop, uh, you know, its its attempts at

intimidating me even after I left the company. So, that kind of forced us into a corner. When I say us, it's me and my mom. Um, so, she's a single parent, I'm the only child, and I was forced to actually let her know what was going on, um, cuz towards the end of my stay at Wirecard, the company tried to kill me. So, you know, in that situation, I had no choice but to let my mom know cuz we live together just in case anything was to go down. So, yeah, it was a very reluctant situation. As I previously said, you

know, lawyers, legal professionals, we are so bound by legal privilege and concepts about protecting the client. Um so, it's just not in our DNA when these kinds of issues arise to uh you know, raise them publicly at least. >> It's uh such a shocking story and just hearing you talk about it now, the consequent the lengths to which Wirecard was willing to go to make you to make you uh keep keep your mouth shut and not disclose

their wrongdoing is just uh it is very mind-blowing. And uh now with Confide, you're building upon your experiences. And in your recent press release for the launch of Confide, you speak about recent other corporate failures such as the Boeing 737 Max tragedies, the UK Post Office Horizon debacle, and the downfall of financial institutions like Credit Suisse, et cetera. And do you think that

we are in a particularly scary time for corporate failures because we're not only seeing Wirecard but several other examples as well? >> Yeah, definitely. And I think the reason being is a lot of people are becoming less afraid to speak up. Um that's what I think. So, we're now living in a world where, you know, there's a lot of access to voicing your concerns publicly, whether it's social media like X um or it's TikTok. Uh and also regulators are really

facilitating the ability to speak up in in various ways, whether it's through provide hotline, so it's linked on the website. And I think that's causing a lot of these uh issues, which perhaps were always there, but you know, they're you're now seeing them more in the public space. >> Do you think Wirecard was sort of a a good example or an example of that it [snorts] matters to speak up and kind of uh shed or show the way for many others?

>> Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I always see it as reporting a crime. Um whether you're seeing a crime in the street, you should be doing something about it. It should not be any different from uh witnessing criminal offenses in a corporation. Just because it's a corporation, it doesn't make it less of a crime. >> Yeah, definitely. And do you think the law is still firmly in favor of stopping whistleblowers or are the laws also now helping whistleblowers more?

>> I think the direction that the EU has taken uh with its overarching EU whistleblowing directive, uh you know, which finally in a holistic way came into force in December uh last year. I think that's one of the giant steps forward in the whistleblowing regulation space, and Wirecard was one of the triggers for the directive. Um the way the US is also syncing up with the EU's directive in terms of, for example, reversing the burden of proof on employers this time. Um so, no longer is it the case that the

whistleblower has to prove that the company retaliated against him or her. Um now the company has to prove that it didn't do so. So, a lot of these, you know, you're seeing massive continents like the US and the EU um kind of syncing up in that way, and it's just going to be a matter of time that other jurisdictions get influenced by it uh the same way I believe GDPR, when it first came out, you know, everyone thought it was just a EU thing. Um but now it represents the gold standard in a way uh

for data protection. >> Do you remember the moment that you realized that oh, I am actually I need to become a whistleblower now. This is what's will happen to me. >> Yeah, that was a quite a funny moment because it was my mom that was actually, you know, behind the scenes while I was finding a job. Um she was the one reaching out to uh journalists. So, eventually she was the one that got in touch with Dan McCrum and basically she just told me

that, "Hey, we are meeting the Financial Times this weekend at the airport." And I was taken by surprise. Wasn't very pleased because, you know, again, I was looking for for gainful employment. Um not And speaking to journalists is wasn't what I was expecting. But we then discussed it and we thought, "Okay, let's just understand what the process is should we have to go down this path." Um you know, how they protect their sources and all these things. So, that's how it happened. >> And then it was Dan McCrum at the

Financial Times that you met for the first time then? >> Yeah, so my mom actually reached out originally to Clare Rewcastle Brown. Um she's Gordon Brown's sister-in-law and she was the journalist behind uh the 1MDB scandal. So, Clare and her somehow became friends and uh Clare referred us to the FT because she said the FT has been following the Wirecard story for a while for several years but not really making much progress. So, they would have the

resources and the background um in order to take this forward. So, that's how she connected us with Dan. >> Um and one overlooked aspect of whistleblowing story is sort of the emotional journey because it's uh easy to hear, "Oh, I I spilled the beans on this corporation and they got caught, but you know, there's a whole emotional journey in there as well. So, how did you feel when you started speaking to Dan McCrum in the coffee shops and the

hotel lobbies and then revealing the fraud and giving them the evidence that they needed to go forward with their story? >> It's It's a very strange situation because you don't know what the consequences would be. You don't know if you'll be traced, you'll be exposed, and there's a big lead-up time between giving that information and having the articles published. So, in this In Wirecard's case, it took about 4 months for the FT um between meeting us to publishing the first article. So, that's when you're

kind of in a no man's land situation. Uh you know, knowing what's going to happen, will the article even be published? Um would Wirecard find out? You know, would your identity be leaked and would you get into all kinds of legal issues in as a result of it? Um or be further discredited in the process. So, I think that's the most difficult period and yeah, once the article finally starts coming out, you know, that's where you find a bit of a huge relief actually because now the company has got way

bigger problems to deal with um other than, you know, you. >> Do you still Do you still Do you remember the what you felt in the moment when you saw the first story published? >> Yeah, it was amazing because Wirecard's share price started dropping and I knew that was the most painful way and the only thing that really mattered to the company, um especially the CEO and and board members cuz they were just always like completely obsessed with the share price. In fact, Markus Braun was known to be a looking at his phone all the

time. Um and I don't know, maybe his his heart rate would sync up with the share price going up and down, but that's you know, that's I knew that would hit him um and the board members the most painful way, and that's why we did it. >> Well, it's an amazing story. And now you are the conf- co-founder of Confide, a startup aiming to help businesses detect and act on misconduct earlier, and stop them taking revenge on the employees that reported. So, what has been the

journey from the moment of being a whistleblower to now a startup founder building whistleblowing software, so to say? >> Yes, so I came out publicly about a year after the company crashed. Um and that was via the Sky Studios documentary um called Wirecard: The Billion Euro Lie. So, that was the first documentary in which I was in um and my mom's in. And I wanted to control the narrative, so you know, on [snorts] the same day I told the FT, I told to Süddeutsche

Zeitung, the German paper, they could publish my identity. Um and since then I've been getting a lot of global keynote speaking events, mostly out of the EU. And at some point um I I just told myself like what why was it I was always asking myself the question, why was it me that had to expose this company? Could be someone else, right? What was a bigger purpose behind it? And that's when only late last year, I think it was August um or July, that I kind of had this epiphany, why not

create a product that benefits companies, benefits people, and benefits lawmakers in you know, fulfilling their their regulatory objectives. And that's how Confide was born. I think it's a very powerful word. Cuz often anyone in a whistleblowing or in a speak up situation um they don't know who to confide in. They might be over-confiding in the wrong person, or they might not even be able to confide, right? With cuz of NDAs or legal privilege and other concepts. >> And has uh has your background helped you in building out this uh platform and

getting traction on investors and so forth? >> Yeah, I mean the platform was conceived on two, I would say, hemispheres, right? One being my experience as a general counsel, having seen how poorly companies generally deal with these cases. You know, anything that's raised, there's always a knee-jerk reaction of either pretending it doesn't exist or hoping it goes away on its own, or going after the whistleblower, right? Like or the person raising that concern, what's their motives, why are they doing it, and all

these things. So, generally, I think companies don't manage these types of issues pretty well. So, I've used that side of the experience, and then also the whistleblowing journey, to try to put it all together and creating a product that would help them sensibly manage it. Because what I want to do with Confide is to strip away the subjectivity, the emotional aspect of whistleblowing, cuz whistleblowing is an emotional issue. Um I just want companies to be able to focus objectively on the report. Like, is this

something that would have a potential material adverse effect on the company and the business, right? And do we need to do something about it? I think that's really the question um companies should be asking and dealing with. And if they did, then there would be, you know, they would be managing these cases better and having less PR nightmares. >> Um yeah, I I agree and uh I um I really hope that you succeed with this with this platform, because the

world needs something like that, right? I want to move on to more Let's talk about the future of whistleblowing, what this will look like in the future for those who have platforms like Confide available and new legislation and all these things that you lacked when you became a whistleblower. So, guys, now I I I asked already some of the questions, so with this, I'll just like move on to to some of the others.

Do [clears throat] you think we need a global remuneration regulation for whistleblower? That they should receive some economic benefit somehow? >> I think that's a very difficult one. I'm not generally in favor of whistleblowing rewards in that sense. I think whistleblowers should be supported financially when it comes, for example, if their identities get exposed and now they're trying to, you know,

defend themselves against the truth, right? I think once you're going against a corporation, even though you have truth on your side, do you have resources on your side in establishing that? So, I think that's very difficult, especially in a in a world where there's deep fakes, where forging documents is getting more sophisticated. You know, a company could be forging things that you did. So, how do you do you have the resources to prove otherwise? So, I think that's where financial incentives and assistance can

take place. What I don't want to see is a situation where the only motive or the primary motive for exposing a crime within a corporation is the financial benefit. I think that's very dangerous. It could really create a market, theoretically at least, of people going to companies and trying to find bad things and then potentially blackmailing them, right? Cuz that's that's just a bad way. And also, you know, again, it goes back to what Confide's trying to do, which is tell companies manage this first in-house.

Give people the ability to raise concerns in-house. Discharge their protocol, their obligations. Cuz oftentimes, when you want to you see something wrong, you always like, "Okay, who do I speak to in the company? Who do I I my boss?" Right? You don't like have a weird reaction of wanting to go outside and leak it to the press. Um I mean, unless there's something wrong with you, I would say. Uh so, that's why I think, you know, having that incentive to go outside is very dangerous, especially if you're

going to be rewarded in huge amounts for it. >> I agree. And you said something interesting there, which was about the use of AI. And I haven't really thought about all these advances in AI can actually be used to forge things against the whistleblower, etc. So, it leaves me to ask, do you think AI is a threat or an opportunity in for whistleblowers and exposing more um fraudulent conduct?

>> Well, I think like all tech developments, it could be used both ways. Um again, this goes back to the fundamental issue, which is protecting the identity of the whistleblower and ensuring that, you know, they don't get exposed and the company then can't start doing things against them. So, I think again, if you have a very sound solution in place, a very secure one, which will protect the identity, and this just goes beyond businesses. It also goes to regulators, cuz regulators

always have on their website like a tip-off or anonymous whistleblowing channel. Um so, I think everyone needs to really think and remember that you're dealing with human lives, and these human lives are just trying to raise a concern. Um exposing them can have, especially in developing countries, a life and death consequence um on individuals. So, whether it's, you know, so, with that in mind, I think uh whether it's AI or whether it's just

flat out IP tracking within the corporation um and and tracing, I think we need to always make sure that the whistleblowers are kept safe. >> Do you have any examples that you could share, maybe anonymously, about other whistleblower cases that you've seen through your work in through your work at Confide or through your work as a public speaker that hasn't made made the news that would shed some light on what's what

other whistleblowers what it looks like? >> Yeah, well, Confide doesn't have uh we don't have access to reports. So, the companies that who are customers, they manage their cases within the platform. We have no access to it and visibility. Um, whereas for me on a personal level, I have had many individuals reach out to me um who are in similar situations from a whistleblowing standpoint. And what's very interesting is most of them, if not all of them, are

extremely senior staff. They're talking like C-levels, they're talking partners, director level. Um, so that's where it becomes quite uh enlightening in a way because a lot of times you would just visualize like a whistleblower being just a normal employee um coming across stumbling across like an invoice and trying to raise it, but you don't imagine that it's really the very senior people that are the ones struggling in terms of what should they do and and how to

navigate these situations. >> Is there a common theme to what they are what they want to expose or does that vary a lot? >> The common theme is always the same, which is they try to in a bonafide way raise an issue and concern to their colleagues, um their fellow senior staff members or leadership members, right? And what they didn't expect was a boomerang where now all of the people they raised it to are starting to

discredit that person. Um just finding fault, trying to intimidate them, trying to uh just really make them into the bad person now. So, I think that's just the common theme. And when once you start doing that to individuals, to human beings, I think you would have a negative outcome because you're creating enemies, you're creating people that are angry, isolated, and disgruntled. Um and potentially forcing them into a

situation where the only way they see they can raise this issue or bring the matter to light because they're being attacked in such a personal way is to go outside the company. So, I think companies should really not approach um cases this way. It's making unnecessary enemies um that are just going to go outside the company and take you down. >> And in terms of geography, are are whistleblower Is it all across the world or is it more I Is it more of to

different geographical areas? >> No, I don't think it's limited to anywhere. I've got people reaching out from Canada, from New Zealand, um Africa as well. Um So, it's not it's not limited to any particular like concentrated place. >> You've already mentioned that for some and especially in developing countries, this can be a matter of life and death and it almost it was that for you as well. So, what are the real-world consequences of not getting the support

for whistleblower's rights? >> The person can be permanently destroyed, right? Professionally and personally. And once you do that to people who, for example, are sole breadwinners of their families, this would have an impact on the families as well. So, you're destroying multiple lives in the process. Um just today or yesterday, I posted on LinkedIn about the Boeing case where one of the primary whistleblowers was found dead in an alleged suicide in a truck

um outside his motel. And this was in a process where he is traveling and giving a lot of evidence. So, you know, apparently it's a suicide or it could be something else. I don't know, but these are the consequences um if they're not managed properly. >> Yeah, and um yeah, it's really serious. It's a serious matter we're talking about and um I really hope that you succeed with Confide so that we can get the future of

whistleblowing right and get the whistleblowers the support they need. And I'm really Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge and your experience. We are coming to the end of this episode, so I'm just going to dish out some quick fire questions for you to all off. So, I'll say a sentence and just say the first thing that comes to your mind. Ready? >> Okay. Sure. >> If you could wave a magic wand and put one thing into practice to help

whistleblowers tomorrow, what would it be? >> Support systems. >> What is your advice for anyone who has seen practices they know are wrong but is maybe scared to come forward? >> Think of what matters most to you. >> With your experience, what three words come to mind when thinking about the financial system today? >> Corrupt. Imbalanced. Volatile.

>> And if you could turn back the clock to 2018, would you do it all the same? >> Yes. >> That brings the spin of the laundry to an end. Pav, thank you so much for joining me. Where can people find out more about you and connect with you? >> I'm on LinkedIn. Uh Kath Gill is the name. I think that's the best way to connect with me. >> And thanks to everyone who is listening to this very important topic. If you've enjoyed this episode, don't forget to go

check out the back catalog and follow the laundry on your podcast platform of choice or subscribe to our YouTube channel. And if you haven't heard about the Wirecard scandal, I definitely recommend to go back and listen to that episode. To get in touch with the laundry team, you can comment on the Strive's LinkedIn page, my LinkedIn page, or email laundry@strive.ai. Your host for this episode was me, Marit. Our producer was Matthew. Our engineer was Dominic. The laundry is

proudly produced by Strive. Visit strive.ai and try our live demo today. See you next time.