What Really Happened Inside Wirecard, Europe’s Biggest Fintech Scandal

Wirecard was the PayPal of Europe. When I was there, it was actually bigger than Deutsche Bank and Commerce Bank combined. It was listed on the premium DEX exchange in Germany. What a lot of people didn't know was that it was effectively just faking its books, doing all kinds of shady transactions. And yeah, it's literally stuff of movies and books. That's kind of what forced me to blow the whistle into what's now Germany's largest ever financial scandal. as executives on the interal red notice list links to Russian mafia intelligence agencies and so on. >> It started off as a payment processor

for adult entertainment and gambling and then become like a bank killer and then there was like a lot of scandals associated with it. You were threatened, you were bribed or they attempted to bribe you. They also wanted to send you to a trip to Jakarta because obviously in Singapore you can't do anything as such but they wanted to send you to a trip to Jakarta and you weren't sure if you were even going to come back if you went there. But what was your mindset despite knowing all of these what made you go forward with the story and continue and despite going up against

such powerful people? >> It's not in my DNA to just endlessly take hits. I wouldn't allow myself to be basically bullied. It was really a faffel aspect to it. this is going to be one of the biggest scandals as a financial fraud that Europe has seen in decades. >> The day that the story came out, what was that like for you? And then the wild card office was raided by the Singapore authorities. So in that moment, were you in office? Were you outside? And how did it feel? >> I was very happy because it's the share price took a massive tanking and it was

the front page of the FT. And then 3 weeks later, Singapore raided the company, which was the only jurisdiction to have actually acted and done something about it. I wouldn't go to Russia. I wouldn't go to Chakata even until now. >> Um, so my name is Bath Gil. I'm a lawyer. Um, I used to work in in big law firms before moving to the fintech and crypto space. Um, and then of course one of the companies was Wirecart. I was the

head of legal for Apac Asia Pacific and uh yeah I think a lot of people are aware what happened there and what led me to blow the whistle on the company. Uh using that experience I've now founded my own uh startup. So it's doing you know we went to market with whistleblowing software naturally given my background experience and now we have um kind of like become a full-fledged uh governance risk and compliance platform. >> Amazing. And for people who may not be that familiar with the via card scandal,

could you give like a quick one minute um you know brief on what the scandal exactly was, what your role was in that and you know what uh how that kind of encouraged you to start your own company and to talk about uh the importance of whistleblowing. >> Yeah, sure. So, Wirecard was like the PayPal of Europe. Uh basically it was a fintech darling of Germany. Um it was a very successful company. It when I was there it was actually bigger than Deutsche Bank and Commerce Bank

combined. It was listed on the uh premium DEX exchange um in Germany. And what a lot of people didn't know was that it was effectively just you know faking its books um doing all kinds of shady transactions and yeah it's literally stuff of movies and books. So I just happened to be the guy that uh you know an internal whistleblower came to. I protected that person. I investigated it. Uh found myself in a lot of trouble for doing that even after

I left the company. Um so that's kind of what forced me to blow the whistle into what's now Germany's largest ever financial scandal. Uh and you know the there's executives on the interal red list red notice list. Um yeah links to Russian mafia um intelligence agencies and so on. >> No, it's so crazy. And actually I've uh I was watching this TV show. I don't know if you've seen it. It's called Industry and the last season which just

came out in I think beginning of this year. It's kind of I mean they say that it's loosely based on wire card like shades of revolute um as well in it. Um so yeah and you know I can kind of see the similarities because even with the industry so basically there's this fictional fintech company in London where um it started off as a payment processor for adult entertainment and gambling and then went on to kind of uh become like a bank killer and then there

was like a lot of scandal associated with it and yeah it's crazy. >> Yeah, it definitely sounds like like a bit of a wild card there. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, just kind of um going back to you exposing this massive scandal, how did kind of your life change after that? What was uh you know with your friends, your family? How how did that get impacted? Um, I mean it changed because I came out

publicly a year after the company crashed and that was when the Sky documentary came out. Uh, which had me and my mom and everyone in there showing what happened to me and what led to the whistleblowing. So, you know, then obviously everybody realized like, okay, who's this guy? Uh, let's speak to him. Let's find out more from his side. Um, so kind of like became this public persona for lack of better description. Uh it's changed my life because now you know people think that okay you need to

um you are this like really you know good whistleblower guy and all these things. So you become more careful as to what you say uh because people are listening that you have like you know people taking whatever you say uh with impact and meaning. So you got to watch what your words what words come out of your mouth. can't be like my younger you full don't don't don't care self right so I think that's kind of like one way that it

changed um and also from a mission perspective it changed exactly what I was doing which was just corporate legal work as a general counsel and then it changed into more like impact work uh what do I use my experience to do and hopefully have companies not become wire guard right or have whistleblowers or people just normal day-to-day people um feel that they have access to secure channels uh tools that actually work and all these things. So a lot of thought leadership a lot of impact work a lot of

uh this year onwards I want to focus more on the mental health aspects of things you know as lawyers as professionals we don't really want to talk about that stuff but I think it's real given that every day uh in today's day and age things are just the stress levels are just worse than inflation levels right so how do we manage those things >> no for sure and then you know kind of really going back uh to the beginning for you where you You're actually like a law student at the time. Did you ever think that this is how your career is

going to play out? >> No, I don't think so. I don't think anyone, at least not that I'm aware, would um have whistleblowing or becoming a whistleblower as a as a target or goal that they want to be in life. Uh often you just find yourself in that position and then you are trying to navigate out of it. >> No, for sure. And do you think um you know obviously with you when it came to the whole scandal there were a lot of there was a lot of risk associated with

you even whistleblowing you know uh you were threatened you were bribed you were or they attempted to bribe you uh they also wanted to send you to a trip you know to Jakarta because obviously in Singapore you can't do anything as such but they wanted to send you to a trip to Jakarta and you weren't sure if you were even going to come back if you went there. Um, but what was your mindset like uh despite knowing all of these risks? What made you kind of uh go forward with the story and continue and

uh despite going up against such powerful people? >> That was more in when I was in the company. Um, and then when I left, they were still not stopping whatever they were doing. So I think um at some point I just need to do something um because you you can't just be taking hits. So it's not in my DNA to just endlessly take hits. There needs to be some kind of response. Um so they triggered that response and I think that was a mistake

that they made and I think it's a mistake every company makes when they're in a that kind of scenario, right? they just push employees to become um angry and want and forced to kind of like want to do something in response. And especially if you're not a clean company, I don't know why you would do that. It's just not wise in any way or strategic. You want to probably manage these people out in a better way, right? But I think from a wire perspective, they were quite in a catch 22 because I

was a lawyer. I wasn't just like an ordinary staff member. Um, and yeah, I think that's where they kind of just got perhaps desperate or carried away or arrogant. I don't know, a combination of those things. And they thought that they could get away with it for a long time because they had been getting away from it. I mean, with it for for like 20 years. >> And then was there like a specific moment where you decided that, you know, this is it. I need to be the person to expose them or was it more, you know,

like a you know, gradual thing where you were like, "Oh I can't believe this is the gravity of the situation and someone needs to say something." >> Yeah. I mean, as a lawyer, you want to you have um certain elements of wanting to see legal and justitiable outcomes. Um and I think that was a good driver for it. Uh, and of course they it's always good if there's a criminal company trying to do bad things to you to then distract them to refocus their

efforts on their own problems. So that was kind of like the intention. Uh, let's have them meaningfully uh let's jiu-jitsu their current, you know, efforts on me to themselves and fighting their own fires. So I think that's what led to uh the thought process as well behind that >> and you know so I watched the documentary on uh wild card the one that you mentioned and uh your mom was very central to uh a lot of you know the

strength behind you actually coming out and saying something against uh wire card. What do you think it is about her or the way she raised you or the values that she kind of instilled in you or who she is as a person that first made you want to speak out and then hold your ground and then not bend when uh things got tough and you had all these risks uh that were you know around you? >> Yeah, she's all she's a very strong person. Um even though it's kind of uh

paradoxical because she's also very kind. So that has always been from my perspective seeing how her kindness was taken advantage of um you know by whoever right could be friends could be in the workplace and all those things so I always wanted to not be in that situation and kind of I told myself I wouldn't allow myself to be basically bullied right and criminals are pretty much bullies anyway cuz they'll keep on uh doing what they

can and trying to get get away with it, but one day they'll just meet the wrong person. That kind of like crashes it all down. And I think at some point I was like, "Okay, this is rubbish, right? I don't know what the company's issue is. I'm no longer there, but they they just want to play this game." So, it was really a fafo kind of aspect to it. I think that's just in my DNA for some reason. So, I thought I'll just activate that and see what happens. I had no idea that the scale of the wrongdoing and

misconduct was to that extent. I thought it was kind of like more central localized some board level you know involvement but not like okay this is going to be one of the biggest scandals uh as a financial fraud that Europe has seen in decades. >> Yeah. And you know, I'm sure you've met a lot of other kind of whistleblowers as well through talking about your own story and now with the platform. Do you feel like they all share certain traits

or values? Uh or do they have something that's very similar to each of them? >> I think similar is wanting to see an outcome. So there's all of them want to see the right thing happen, the outcome, the justice. Um, so they're kind of like justice warriors in that sense. Uh, but of course like you know like not all whistleblowers are that way. You would have those that kind of cross the line into blackmail um wanting payouts, wanting to uh pretty

much tell the company if you don't, you know, put me in a good position then I will take you down. So I think there's all these different blur lines and then there's of course people that aren't really in a whistleblowing scenario. they're more of in an employment scenario um where there's redundancies potentially or they feel they've been harassed or bullied or discriminated against. So I think the word whistleblowing these days is very widely and broadly used. Uh we need to narrow it down. I think whistleblowing should only deal with real serious things,

right? um like fraud, bribery, criminal offenses, um you know, that kind of wrongdoing instead of like what would be more grievance type uh wrongdoings. >> So, and sometimes it's not even a whistleblowing. You just want to be able to >> to raise an issue, >> right? For example, >> you know, your boss may be using his wife's uh company as a vendor, but you Well, that's obviously uncomfortable. It's a conflict. you you may not be very

much focused on that, but you may be more focused on the fact that the company as a vendor has real product defects associated with it. Now, how do you raise this issue without coming into conflict with your boss, right? Because the internal audit team may want to know because it's a business risk. It's an operational risk. Customers will be impacted. So being able to create an atmosphere where people can actually raise that safely without the fear of a retaliation or spotlight on themselves. I think that's where um companies need

to also think about these things and cultures need to be set uh in that way that's more positive because at the end of the day every single thing that an employee is raising needs to be looked at and it could and it's frankly in the company's or the organization's best interest to do so. Um because knowledge is power. uh while of course not everything is a it's it's a wire card or it's an issue at least being able to know about it first is where I think uh strategic or or what or

wisdom-driven organizations as I would call them would uh structure themselves >> no for sure and so you know I work in crypto which is obviously an industry where all of this is rampant like I think it's uh just per capita on per capita basis just has a higher density of uh almost like not even fraud but like uh I think very young founders with a lot of money and um very inexperienced

founders who uh build companies that have crazy valuations and then they're kind of stuck in the cycle of um you know having to justify those valuations showing some kind of revenue and keeping the token up. Uh but I know a lot of my friends who also work in crypto uh know that these companies are not really legit or uh you know there's always some issue. What would be the best way for them to kind of come out and talk about

it uh when you know especially with something like crypto which doesn't even really have HR. Um maybe they have like some legal contractors that work for them but not really like a full legal team. what what what is like the best way for these people to come out and kind of share their griev grievance with the world or even within the company? >> Yeah, I think funnily crypto is becoming more and more regulated now. >> Yeah. >> So it's harder for these organizations or or crypto fintex in that sense to

operate um without some kind of supervisory or regulatory supervision. Right? So I would think the best way and this is like regardless of industry is to document things and flag them in a very sensible manner as as like a risk I would say or flagging like okay there's a transaction monitoring gap here there is this kind of compliance workflow gap uh how do we fix it and so on. So once they do that internal aspect they can always wait and see what is the response

and then of course the question is would the response now based on their job scope um start to impact them or put them in a risk so if you're in compliance you're in legal um would your job now start to become at risk if something goes wrong and I think that's where uh different questions need to be asked right like should I remain in this company uh how do I navigate out of these things it's quite complic licated. I think crypto is a cowboy industry as a

whole. Uh I would say most of it. Um I've been in that space. I've been a GC, a general counsel of a crypto exchange. I was a fan. I'm no longer a fan of the space. Um I think they're very very limited use cases. Of course, blockchain as a technology which everyone hyped about um and and tries to deflect attention to. It's like no no look at the blockchain. Yes. Nobody's doubting the technology, but we are now talking about use cases, right? You have memecoins, you have altcoins,

what Twitter calls shitcoins and all these things or sorry, X now uh calls all that stuff. It's just a hype. It's just a lot of it is pump and dump schemes. I mean, if you see what's happening in the US, for example, the clear pump and dump aspects there. There's no accountability. Very rarely do you see that happen. you had, you know, the world's biggest crypto exchange and I don't want to go into big detail about that, but you saw the sanction was only a few months in jail despite billions being involved. So, where's the

stick in these things, right? What exactly is going on? Uh who's interested in keeping this going? I think these are like the wider issues uh that are in play. So even for you know the that scam that that that more Gen Z scandal with the hot tour girl on X right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That was like the most obvious pump and there's like no accountability, right? A person literally became a multi-millionaire um and is just walking

around twerking now uh as of the last video that I saw yesterday uh on X. So where's the accountability and all these things? It's just becoming a joke at this point. No, for sure. And then especially I think when um you know you also have politics involved in it and they're kind of complicit in it or I would uh it's just a guess for me that they're complicit in it and then you also have potentially media that's also complicit. Uh it's just become so difficult for say like a small employee to go up against

the system almost. But what really fascinates me about your story is that that's actually what you did. you were just one employee and um of course with the help of a couple more people but still not big enough to go up against um you know the founders of wire card but also the German government in a way because um wire card was Germany's pride almost and then at the same time you know once you kind of discover that this

is going wrong you also have to be loud enough for people to hear you which is again really difficult like you to engage the right kind of media, the right kind of reporters uh making sure that you know it's a big enough story and of course with Vioard you were able to do it with the FT which is the biggest uh financial magazine or publication but um you know when you were kind of going through that mental model of okay I need to expose this what was the exact kind of uh framework that

you used where you were like okay we need to engage this journalist, we need support from this person. What was that exact kind of model that you kind of mentally at least prepared for yourself in the moment? >> It's all about speed. So, you want to have uh the right reputable media outlet on your side to investigate uh because once they investigate it, it usually forces regulators to act and enforcement agencies to act uh really quickly. Uh because you could just send like a whistleblowing report to a regulator for

example or file something somewhere but um you don't have control over the speed of that thing. They may be getting reports like hundreds of them right every month. Who's looking at that? How are they prioritizing it? Would it be filed away for a few years? So I think having like a media outlet talk about it as a scandal or start to investigate from a investigative journalism standpoint what's the strategy um and it worked. It's not very easy cuz journalists also like regulators

probably uh get hundreds of these every week. How do they choose what case is what? Um you know cuz a lot of people are emotionally driven. Uh people are very different as well. what is an invoice error to one person may be a massive fraud potential to another. So we we need to they also need to sift through all these things. Um and then litigation risk is the biggest for for whistleblowers um as well as for journalists and stuff right because

companies would straight away send a seize and desist. They will sue um for for people who are whistleblowers do you have the money to defend yourself? uh most of us don't um and then from a journalist standpoint is also the same. There's legal involved, there's evidential uh cross-checking, validation and all these reputational elements involved. Um so it's quite a complicated space. Uh I think going back also to the previous point on crypto, I think this also means that it's all systemic in a way where wrongdoing happens. There are

multiple players that would have enabled it. I think in the crypto space, you also need to look at venture cap funds. uh what is the level of due diligence that they're doing. The problem is also what is the incentive to do that much of a due diligence because if you're a VC you're investing in a normal startup that's not crypto you would then be aiming for returns over a period of time right say four to five years maybe whereas if you're in a token I mean you're investing in a a crypto firm you probably get issued tokens uh when the

first token listing happens you would have recovered a lot of that amount uh you would have broken even quite fast and all these things so I think incentives are also uh kind of play a financial incentives play a huge role uh in a lot of these factors. And of course in large scale frauds you would have multiple internal and external actors that would have enabled this to happen. Whether it's the external auditors, the control functions in there, the board, the management team, uh law enforcement, you know, everything. It's just a whole

bunch of different actors that would have played uh different roles in either shutting their eyes or enabling these kinds of issues to have uh from becoming very small to becoming like super big and exploding. >> Mhm. No, for sure. And so, you know, uh again to kind of go back to uh just slicing this question a little bit more. Uh so when you kind of uh went up to uh or you kind of engaged the reporters

from FD, there was still like some leadup time between when you kind of exposed the story versus when you published them. I'm sure they were also getting clearances from their legal team making sure the story is legitimate and all of that. What was that wait period like for you where you were like I think it was like 5 months. Uh so what was that time like for you? Was it really scary or in that moment like how were you feeling? >> I think it's more frustrating because you can't control you don't have access to FT's info and progress, right? What

are they doing? Are they even working on this? When is it going to be published? When is this going to happen? So, I think this is the most frustrating bit is the wait. Um, and yeah, it's again about not being able to control the outcome. And of course, you know, outfits like DFT are super professional. They would also not be giving you uh information um fully for good reason like you know there's always a risk with the whistleblower end of shorting the stock

and financially incentivizing himself in the process uh doing unethical stuff on the side. So I think there's all these different um hurdles and and walls that exist in these situations that from a from a person's perspective that wants to see justice, you're like, "Okay, when is this going to happen?" Right? It's like really waiting for for example like school exam results. You're like just every day is like a super long day and you're just like waiting for that to happen, distracting yourself, trying to

make time fly. Um yeah, so I would say that's the biggest mental challenge. And then you know the day that the story came out what was that like for you? And then uh the wild card office was raided by the Singapore authorities. So in that moment were you in office? Were you outside and how did it feel? >> No I left the I I after I whistleblowers after I left Wire Guard >> okay >> and then there were five months after 4 months after that between that leaving and the FT's article I don't know four

to five months um around there. So yeah, I was very happy because it's the share price took a massive tanking and it was the front page of the FT and then three weeks later Singapore uh raided the company which was the only regulator globally to have actually acted sorry not regulator but jurisdiction to have actually acted and done something about it. Uh so yeah I'm I'm proud that Singapore actually acted. Uh of course then subsequent to that there were challenges because of jurisdictional issues. uh you know there's limits to

what one jurisdiction can do if the data if the individuals are overseas in another place what's the cooperation level and so on right yeah and and of course then it becomes frustrating to a different way because you're now seeing the company blatantly lie and um you know many things happen between that period where between the ex the first exposure and then the final uh crash of the company >> no for sure and then after that did you still feel like there were risks to you

personally in terms of your safety, freedom and things like that? >> Yeah. So, I wouldn't go to Russia. I wouldn't go to Jakarta even until now. I'm not sure how uh what's happening. Is it a good idea? I assume not. I'm told maybe better not to. Uh which is kind of like a pity in its own way, but I don't really I haven't really thought much about the risks involved uh from a physical standpoint. Uh I think I'm just kind of a person that deals with something when it happens. Um like

I don't sit and hypothesize about stuff in general. >> Wow. Yeah. No, that makes complete sense. And then I think the last couple of questions that I have for you is you know uh if you had to give advice to say someone who is in law school right now about working as a lawyer in this kind of day and age this climate what would that look like? I would say like find a good mentor from the industry, someone

who has seen it um has his war wounds, uh has that wisdom because a lot of times what you learn in law school, you don't see or you don't really um or or put it the other way around, what happens in the workspace, what you learn on the job, you don't really learn in law school, right? How do you navigate ethical scenarios in a in-house setting, in a corporate setting, um and all these things? How do you so so having a good um mentor is very key. I would say go

find one. Um I wouldn't say be a sac and suck up to that person but uh just be like you know just just see how this person has navigated all these uh real life challenges and I think have a good support group um that's got chatum house rules as they call them just discuss things without breaking client confidentiality and all that stuff and I think you know if you have a good community uh you got a good advisory circle uh good mentors that's what I would recommend for for the

youth. >> Did you have like a very meaningful mentor figure in your life who you say that was key for uh to your success? >> Uh I wouldn't say so. Uh not necessarily like I can't pinpoint one person in particular. I think it was just like a blend of my own experience. I mean I've seen like a lot of stuff uh during my legal career as well. you know, I've also seen multiple crashes of the

economy uh and the fallouts from them, whether it's a subprime, it was a Asian crisis and all these things. So, I think people born during my generation have kind of uh had I don't know if it's a benefit, but they've had the ability to go through various interesting and novel ups and downs. uh whether it was the advent of tech, you know, computers, internet, smartphones, um to even navigating like financial instruments which didn't exist, various crashes, uh

seeing all the the crazy stuff basically uh from a very different world where we had physical phones, black and white TVs, uh Michael Jackson, uh to what's happening now, right? So I think that was the experience from a societal environmental standpoint kind of like hardened does in a way uh which I don't it's very different from what's happening now uh so because the current generation may not have that I think it's good to kind of like hang with some of us folks um I would say or if you can

find the right ones uh hopefully and then just yeah just be just be wise I mean at the end of the day just protect yourself right um be a sense sensible, wise human being. Every action that you do, just ask yourself uh would it be able to make you sleep well at night? >> Yeah, I think that's a great like way to check yourself and uh I think no, even for me like I have a mentor and I think she's been so instrumental to who

I've be become as a person. She's been in my life almost seven eight years now. So right when I was in my last year in uni until now. So it's been uh I see what you mean about having someone who you can kind of look up to at the same time who gives you good advice and you know you can rely on them. Uh and then the last question that I have for you is is there anything that you're particularly excited for within you know your own personal industry or

in your own life for 2026 2027. >> Um I think I'm just like focused on the startup. I think it's doing very well thankfully. Uh I never never thought I'll have a startup in that sense and it's quite a shift from being a lawyer to a a entrepreneur. Uh but seeing how customers are actually adopting from all over the world, I think that's quite reassuring. Being able to use an experience, a lift experience, putting

into something tangible and then seeing other people actually adopt that. I think that's quite a uh exciting thing. So now I'm just seeing like I mean while navigating the crazy stuff that's happening in the world also um navigating this the startup and making sure that we we we become a success. So at least then I'll have some form of legacy right I could say like yes this thing happened to me this is what I did with the thing and hopefully you know even if anything

happens to me down the line I would have left something behind which uh hopefully proved useful for uh everybody out there >> is that important to you to have like a legacy >> uh I mean legacy is important in various ways to different people some want to have kids and have that kind of uh legacy they want to have a bloodline and stuff and then others want to have legacy in the sense of their professional life right want to be known as like a top lawyer a very respected person in a

specific field um for me it's more of just being able to have said like look uh this is how you navigate negative very bad scenarios and turn them into a positive so I think it comes more from an inspirational element um and an execution element and then that's like pretty much it. I don't think there's uh if I could do that, I think it's I'll just be happy. So, uh yeah, I'm not like I don't want to be like I don't have

like ambitions like some people maybe like Elon Musk and all those would have right on on that kind of grand scale. I think it's just uh on my own personal story and how I can if that helps anybody out there uh in any way even in a tangent show way I think then that's great. um it's good enough for for me and that would be what my legacy would define. >> I love that. Uh so yeah, those were all the questions I had. Thank you so much

for joining the podcast today. Really appreciate it. >> Sure. Thanks for having me. >> Thank you for listening to Off the Record. If you like this episode, like, subscribe, and leave a review. It helps the podcast grow. You can find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.